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The We Turned Out Okay Podcast

What kind of hijinks did you get up to as a kid? Did you climb trees? Did you run around outside barefoot? Did you eat raw cookie dough? Maybe you wanted to do these and other crazy things, but you weren't allowed… Let me ask you this: what if your children wanted to? Would you let them? If you hesitate there, well, you're in the right place. The We Turned Out Okay podcast is where we learn the hows and whys of hovering less and enjoying our young children more. You get to learn from host Karen Lock Kolp's mistakes, but especially from the successes of her guests. Each helpful, lively conversation illustrates why this show really is "The Modern Guide to Old-School Parenting."
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Now displaying: Page 6
Jul 12, 2016

Did you love arts & crafts at camp, or hate it? I was a mixture of both – some projects I loved, and some I loathed, and as I think about those projects, I realize that I disliked the micromanaged, do-it-the-instructor's-way-or-else projects the most.

I always loved the open-ended stuff best. Also, big projects were really fun, as were those that got you super-messy.

For today's summer camp arts & crafts show, I'm sharing my all-time favorite project to do with little kids: painting a giant mural just as Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel ceiling!

First, a quick note about the Ninja Parenting Community: I've had a technical glitch hold up the opening for a few weeks, which is a bummer. However, it can work out really well for you because, as compensation, I'm offering more one-to-one support to those who become part of my email group and join the community in its very first week! (Hopefully in late July.) Becoming part of the email group now means:
– a weekly email about what's happening on We Turned Out Okay
– the chance to join the Ninja Parenting Community at the best pricing that there will ever be, period.
– a one-to-one parent coaching call every three months for all the time you're continuously in the community!
– I'm offering this as compensation for the time we are all stuck waiting as I figure out the technical glitch,
so you definitely want to jump into my email group!
Become part of the email group by clicking this link or going to weturnedoutokay.com/ninja-parenting-community-login and signing up to get notified about when the Ninja Parenting Community opens.

To listen and to learn how to do today's unusual and very fun arts & crafts project, go to weturnedoutokay.com/088.

Jul 7, 2016

Welcome to the first Thursday summer camp episode of We Turned Out Okay, where every Tuesday will be about fun stuff to do with our kids, and every Thursday will be about fun stuff to do for ourselves!

Today, the big yellow bus has pulled into the parking lot of our summer camp, and the doors are open, ready to take us to check out the stars with Neil DeGrasse Tyson of Star Talk Radio.

Click here  or go to weturnedoutokay.com/087 for the links to today's field trip!

Jul 5, 2016

Happy summer!
Here at We Turned Out Okay, we're changing the format up, making each Tuesday about something fun to do with your kids – and each Thursday something fun to do for yourself.

Today, for our very first Summer Camp episode, we are taking some bugs on a field trip!

If your child is frightened of creepy-crawlies, today's summer camp activity could really help him or her get past that.

And for everybody else, it is just plain fun :-)

Also, I'm excited to announce that the Ninja Parenting Community is open in beta!
If you're feeling overwhelmed by the many tough aspects of raising a young child, I hope you'll check it out –
Click here to read more about it.

Enjoy the show!

Jun 30, 2016

Today, I answer the second of two questions asked a few weeks ago by listener Suzanna; I answered Suzanna's first question in a special bonus episode last Thursday about road-and-parking-lot safety with small children, which you can hear by clicking here.

Suzanna's second question seems somewhat thornier, and will be familiar to anyone with more than one child (or who was more than one child growing up). She writes that she is concerned about "how to deal with the acting out the comes with the new baby in the family: hitting, potty training regression etc. So much is on how to physically intervene with hitting, but with an infant in arms this is often impossible."

Click this link or go to weturnedoutokay.com/085 to read my response to Suzanna, and also for key links from today's episode!

Jun 28, 2016

Do You you sometimes feel caught between competing demands in your life: work is pulling you one way, kids another, taking care of yourself a distant third?

My guest today, Elizabeth Miller of happyhealthycaregiver.com, knows your pain. In fact, a few years ago she added another demand on top of these when her father passed away and her chronically ill mother moved close to Elizabeth so she and her siblings could care for their Mom.

Elizabeth writes about that time in her life: "I was stressed, overwhelmed and often felt like I was suffocating by my never-ending to-do lists."

After looking for a support network for others like her, caught in the middle as the so-called sandwich generation, Elizabeth created the support she needed by founding Happy Healthy Caregiver; now, she helps many others transcend the overwhelm she was feeling, while simultaneously caring for parents, children, and themselves.

Today, Elizabeth joins me to talk about how parents of young children – with all the work-life balance issues this stage of life brings – can enjoy family life and a great relationship with their children!

Click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/084 to listen, and for key links, including to a fantastic meditation app and a book which has helped Elizabeth understand her loved ones better.

Jun 23, 2016

Recently listener Suzanna got in touch with two great questions – so I decided to split the answers into today's bonus Your Child Explained and next week's regularly scheduled one.

Today I answer Suzanna's first question: how can we keep our kids safe on roadways and in parking lots and other public places, while also giving them some independence?

My answer is twofold – click here to listen, read the show notes, and for key links talked about in today's episode!

Jun 21, 2016

Understanding our own feelings is the work of childhood – but sometimes this important work is not completed when it should be, and that's bad for so many reasons. Today we look at what can go wrong, and talk about 3 ways to help kids understand their own feelings!
This Just You and Me episode functions as the second of two chapter studies of Positive Discipline Ninja Tactics: Key Tools to Handle Every Temper Tantrum, Keep Your Cool, and Enjoy Life With Your Young Child.
Click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/083 to listen and get access to key links, including to your FREE guide outlining the bonus fourth way to help our kids understand their own feelings!

Jun 16, 2016

Do you wish your mornings could be a little bit less stressful? It can be really hard to get out the door with young kids, and that was Marla's situation with her kindergartner, Gracie.

Recently Marla wrote with the following questions: "how can I pull her out of the "I will not and you can't make me!" mindset and nudge her back into "if I do this we can all have a good time" mindset? When she has her battle armor on, she will argue with me about everything… she will sometimes yell and sometimes I yell. I try to get to her level and talk about it, but sometimes I'm not sure what to say. We just need to get ready to go. You know?"

For Marla, the situation is a little bit more complicated as Gracie has Down Syndrome. But I was so happy that we could record our coaching call – EVERY young child gets that battle armor sometimes!

Today I'm thrilled to bring you my parent coaching call with Marla. Like you, she is a parent who loves her child fiercely and and yet also struggles with the day-to-day issues that every child can bring up. When I checked in with Marla recently she had really great news about streamlining their busy mornings, and you'll hear about that towards the end of this episode.

Click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/082 to check out Marla's beautiful schedule board, created for Gracie based on the advice I was able to share, and also for key links to today's episode!

Jun 14, 2016

About three weeks ago, my father required brain surgery to fix a subdural hematoma that he sustained while skiing two months previously. My husband Ben held the fort here at home while I flew out to be with my folks; today I'm sharing what I learned during the ten days I spent with them. (Dad is doing very well and on the mend.)
This episode comes in three parts: first, I share about what I learned during the ten days I spent with Mom and Dad surrounding Dad's surgery.
Next, we are rebroadcasting the father's day bonus episode from June 2015, my conversation with my Dad; finally, we are rebroadcasting the mother's day bonus episode from May 2015, my conversation with my Mom (my favorite part: when she describes her Stuffed Zucchini Theory of parenting young children :-)
Today's episode is unusual, and not what I was planning at all – sometimes life intervenes, and that's just, well, life. I bring it to you in hopes you can learn something from my experience. I hope it resonates with you, dear listener, and helps you remember how important family bonds are.

Jun 7, 2016

Today, I share possibly my all-time favorite ninja tactic for parents! This is the one to bring out when you are ready to go and have a meltdown of your own.

Instead of doing that… Do this: use the First/Then ninja tactic to make transitioning your child from what he wants to do to what you need him to do easily understandable – and a lot smoother!

Today's episode is the first of two chapter studies, where we focus on one chapter of Positive Discipline Ninja Tactics: Key Tools to Handle Every Temper Tantrum, Keep Your Cool, and Enjoy Life With Your Young Child.

I hope you get a lot out of this study of Chapter 5: Use First/Then, a tool I used all the time to keep sane when my boys were small.

Click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/080 to listen, and click here  or go to weturnedoutokay.com/episode-80-first-then to download your FREE guide, all about how to create a First/Then chart to bring out when you need a concrete tool to help you help your child!

Jun 2, 2016

In this Your Child Explained episode, we consider what helping others looks like from inside our kid's head!

This past Tuesday, I spoke with a mentor of mine, a man who shaped my thinking on how helping others makes us happier and builds a better world. Click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/078 to listen to my conversation with No Impact Man Colin Beavan.

Today, we riff on that conversation to discuss why it's important to teach our kids to help others. Plus I get to read from one of my favorite books, To Kill A Mockingbird by Harper Lee!

Click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com for key links and to listen.

May 31, 2016

Today's guest Colin Beavan appeared on The Colbert Report, The Today Show, and many other talk shows when he first started on a quest to live a good life while limiting the amount of Earth's resources he and his family used, a year-long journey documented in his No Impact Man blog, book, and later documentary.

If you've ever felt unsure of how to approach finding happiness, if you've ever worried about the condition of the world we are leaving for our children, if you - like me - are unclear on the definition of the word agency and how it relates to your life, you are going to love today's's episode.

Colin has a new book out, How to Be Alive, a guide to finding happiness while advocating for our world, our communities, and our families. My favorite section – dog-eared and with my written notes all over the place – is called Who to Parent, and we have a great conversation in today's episode about what those words really mean.

We also talk about how Colin and his family do not have chickens; I learn the definition of the word "agency;" and Colin helps you figure out how to surmount the challenges you may be facing in your life as a parent.

Click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/078 to listen and for key links in this episode!

May 24, 2016

Today's episode centers on a part of every human's innate personality: the trait of introversion or extroversion. (Click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/074 to listen to part one, about parenting introverts – today is about parenting extroverts.)

Where are you happiest – among people, in a noisy, large group, or quietly, in solitude or hanging with just a few people? Does one of the above situations drain you, while the other seems absolutely perfect?

When you think about your young child – does she prefer noisy, loud fun, or is she more quiet and contemplative? Does he get his energy from the same place as you?

Everyone falls somewhere on this introvert/extrovert scale, and figuring out where we fall – and, where our children fall – on the scale can mean coexisting more peacefully and enjoyably with our kids.

Click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/077 for key links from this episode!

May 19, 2016

When I interviewed Erik Wagter for episode 75, Tuesday's guest episode, I'd just finished reading an article about a man named Matthias Buchinger, who despite having no hands or feet, despite missing parts of his legs, danced, performed magic in front of large audiences and heads of state, created amazing art, married four times and was the dad of fourteen children.

My conversation with Erik, which centered on fostering a great relationship with our children, and largely on Erik and his family's relationship with their autistic son, seemed to me to relate an awful lot to this article about Matthias (click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/075 to listen).

Author Beverly Beckham shares about her grandchild, born with Down's syndrome, and how the vast majority of their friends and family were "full of sorrow and sighs." Nearly everyone's expectations for this new life was that it would be compromised, not a full life – and Beverly eloquently writes about all that Matthias accomplished, relating it to our expectations for our children and how these expectations can shape their lives.

Click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/076 to listen, and for key links from today's episode!

May 17, 2016

I knew my conversation with today's guest, a trainer of educators and social workers, would help you become skilled at resolving conflicts in your home. What I didn't expect – and was so joyfully surprised about – was how forthcoming this father of two would be in sharing his family's story of helping their oldest son, diagnosed with autism at a very young age, connect with his family in a meaningful way.

Erik Wagter and his wife Sally took son Tim's education and well-being into their hands, choosing to homeschool starting from when Tim was in primary school. I had goosebumps as Erik share the rewards of all their hard work (and, the hard work itself.)

Whether you have a child with a special need or not, you're going to love this episode. Erik shares his family's terrific story, and how you can resolve conflicts and have a better relationship with your young child.

Click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/075 to listen, and for the key links Erik shares in today's's episode!

May 10, 2016

Today's episode centers on a part of every human's innate personality: the trait of introversion or extroversion. (Today, we focus on the parenting of introverts; coming up in episode 77 – the next Just You And Me episode – we dive into parenting extroverts.)

Where are you happiest – among people, in a noisy, large group, or quietly, in solitude or hanging with just a few people? Does one of the above situations drain you, while the other seems absolutely perfect?

When you think about your young child – does she prefer noisy, loud fun, or is she more quiet and contemplative? Does he get his energy from the same place as you?

Everyone falls somewhere on this introvert/extrovert scale, and figuring out where we fall – and, where our children fall – on the scale can mean coexisting more peacefully and enjoyably with our kids.

Click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/074 for key links from this episode!

May 5, 2016

Today Robin Abrahams, author of the weekly Miss Conduct advice column in Boston Globe Magazine, returns for her second hangout on We Turned Out Okay! (Robin and I first spoke last fall, in episode 42, so click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/042 to hear our first conversation together.)

In honor of Mother's Day Robin has a special article coming out in this Sunday's Globe Magazine, "A letter to moms from a woman without children;" in it she makes some very kind and wonderful promises to her friends with kids, such as "I will take the lead in scheduling social events, because you're managing more social calendars than I am." We start today's conversation talking about Robin's article – and then move on to her delightful book, Miss Conduct's Mind over Manners: Master the Slippery Rules of Modern Ethics and Etiquette.

In this guidebook for modern living – for getting along with other humans – is a tiny, wonderful few pages about breast-feeding in public; Robin and I talk about the perils of both breast-feeding and formula feeding in public, since both leave parents equally open to beratings from strangers! Robin shares great advice with us about how to deflect criticism, from strangers and friends and family.

Next, Robin answers some listener questions:

  • Anne asks "I'm considering homeschooling my preschooler next year, and I'm getting major pushback from my husband's family. (My husband is on board, just not his parents and siblings.) They live nearby and we do see his parents a lot, how can I keep family relations positive in the event that we homeschool their grandson in the fall?"
  • MJ, who is planning a family trip involving traveling in the same car with her estranged mother-in-law for ten days, asks "please help me with easy situation diffusers and ways I may not have thought about to keep this trip as conflict free as possible…"
  • I wonder "what happens if you're at the playground and a parent scolds your child – for doing something perfectly within his rights, in your opinion?", a situation which I found myself in a few years ago.

Robin shares great advice for each of these situations, so you're sure of some great takeaways from our conversation!

Today's show is sponsored by Positive Discipline Ninja Tactics: Key Tools to Handle Every Temper Tantrum, Keep Your Cool, and Enjoy Life With Your Young Child, the book I wrote for you if you are the parent of young children!

It's getting some great reviews, including this one from Heidi de los Andes: "I really enjoyed this quick, clear and caring parenting book. Just like the author advocates in dealing with children, she couches her advice from a position of empathy. The book draws from the same general philosophy of instilling self-reliance as the Free Range Kids book by Lenore Skenazy… I also appreciated that it was a quick read (about an hour) and had lots of tricks and techniques you can start using right away."

It's available as an E-book in Amazon right now… To check out Positive Discipline Ninja Tactics click here or go to Amazon.com and search the name. I hope it helps you in your everyday parenting!

May 3, 2016

"Wait a minute" – I hear you thinking – "aren't Your Child Explained episodes a Thursday thing?"

You are absolutely right, ordinarily the Your Child Explained airs on the Thursday after a guest episode. But this is an unusual week because I'm interviewing the guest tomorrow, Wednesday, May 4, so that you can get your questions to her and she can answer them for Thursday's show…

Which you'll want to do, because returning champion Robin Abrahams, whose weekly "Miss Conduct" column in the Boston Globe Magazine answers etiquette questions with her own brand of caring-yet- Seinfeld-ish, humor, is an expert in the rules that allow us to all get along together.

Go to weturnedoutokay.com/contact to ask your toughest questions about confusing social situations. Miss Conduct fields thorny questions all the time and is a wonderful resource for you if:

  • while investigating homeschooling your young child, your mother-in-law informs you: "no grandchild of mine will ever homeschool"
  • a friend chooses your daughter's first birthday party as the perfect venue to persuade everyone attending that her candidate in the upcoming national election is the best candidate
  • you think a coworker might be pregnant, and you want to congratulate her, but you're not sure if she is or not; should you speak up?

In today's Your Child Explained episode – a precursor to my conversation with Miss Conduct – we consider manners and etiquette from the perspective of our young kids.

I share an embarrassing situation in which, at age four, one of my boys "congratulated" an overweight pizza restaurant employee, enthusiastically telling her "wow – you're really fat!"

Kids just don't have a filter, for better or for worse.

Everyone who hears my four-year-old gasps in astonishment. The employee to whom my son directs his remark flushes; tears come to her eyes.

What do I do at this moment?

Click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/072 to find out – and if you haven't gotten it yet, click here or go to Amazon.com to download my e-book, Positive Discipline Ninja Tactics: Key Tools to Handle Every Temper Tantrum, Keep Your Cool, and Enjoy Life With Your Young Child. It's finally launched and ready for you to start learning the tools that will make every day as a parent calmer and happier!

Apr 26, 2016

Back in episode 68, we started this conversation about helping your child take one hundred percent responsibility for his actions.

In that episode we talked largely about mindset, and how our mindset influences our kids' behavior; I also shared my first parent ninja tactic in raising an honest, responsible child:
Consistency. Today I return to this first tactic, sharing about the brick foundation each of us carries around in our heads, the result of the many interactions we had going back to the day we were born. The more of these bricks that are laid straight and smooth, mortared with love, the better foundation we have as we grow. Keeping our actions consistent in dealing with our kids helps their foundations be the best they can be.

Today I introduce the second and third tactics involved in raising responsible children:
Following through – when you ask them to do something and they fail to do that, what actions do you take next? Or when they hurt the feelings of you or someone else, what can you say to help them learn to stop doing that?
Expectations – what we expect of our kids shapes their behavior. If we expect them to be manipulative, or sneaky; if we are suspicious of their actions, they will rise to those expectations.
On the other hand if we expect honesty and use consistency and follow-through to insist on our children's responsibility, they will turn out that way simply because we expect it. (I know – it does sound very woo-woo! But it's really true. Honest.)

During this episode I have a difficult time coming up with something mean that a child might say – precisely because Ben and I have always had the expectation "in our home, we share feelings, not insults" and Max and Jay have completely fulfilled our expectations! They disagree, of course; but they do not mistreat each other in their disagreements.
That's what happens when you combine consistency, follow-through, and expectations in raising honest, responsible kids :-)
I hope you enjoy this episode!

If you're listening to this the day comes out – Tuesday, April 26, 2016 – you are in luck because Positive Discipline Ninja Tactics (if all has gone well) is live in Amazon and still FREE today! I wrote this book for you, if you want to raise good kids while preserving your sanity as a parent. It's a whole toolbox of the most popular, most-downloaded episodes of We Turned Out Okay; these episodes get so many listens because they help you through the tough moments. With chapters that help you, for example, Make No Sound Like Yes. I hope this book helps you worry less and enjoy more with your young kids!

Apr 25, 2016

Last night I was a featured storyteller at a live storytelling event (thanks to massmouth and Fugitive Productions – what a great night at the Villageworks Gallery in West Acton!)

I told about last June, when my family and I adopted the two cutest dogs in the whole world, and what happened after that.Tinkerbell and Quint

Because a version of this story is included in Positive Discipline Ninja Tactics – the book that launched just yesterday in Amazon, and was written for you if you're trying to keep your sanity intact AND raise a young child at the same time – I wanted to share last night's live telling with you today.

Because today is a special day: Positive Discipline Ninja Tactics is not just available for download in Amazon – it's free, today through Wednesday, April 27!

I hope this book helps you have a better relationship with your young children – and really enjoy life with them.

Click this link to go directly to the book's page in Amazon, and then just click "Buy now," and you're golden!

Apr 21, 2016

In today's Your Child Explained episode, where we always try to see what's going on in our kids' minds, I share about a huge lie that my son Jason perpetrated last spring.

Like all kids, Jay loves his screen time, so much so that for several weeks in the spring of 2015 Jay snuck extra screen time – and lied about it to Ben and I.

For full show notes, click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/070.

Apr 19, 2016

As I get ready to publish Positive Discipline Ninja Tactics: Key Tools to Handle Every Temper Tantrum, Keep Your Cool, and Enjoy Life With Your Young Child, I'm bringing you a favorite conversation with the woman behind The Broad Experience Podcast, Ashley Milne-Tyte.

In this episode, which first aired last summer during We Turned Out Okay Summer Camp, Ashley shares how she spent her childhood in London, England – except her summers, which she spent in rural Pennsylvania. In both places Ashley enjoyed a measure of independence that kids rarely see today.

We also discuss the raising of successful and happy daughters, compelling for you, dear listener, even if you have only sons because the young sons and daughters of today will grow up into the workers and parents of tomorrow; they'll have to work together to make it a great future.

Enjoy this rebroadcast, and to get notified immediately when Positive Discipline Ninja Tactics goes live in Amazon – it will be FREE for the first three days – go to positivedisciplineninjatactics.com.

Apr 12, 2016

Way back in episode two, my son Max's determination to learn snowboarding thrilled me. I bring it up because, in this most recent ski season, Max built on his true grit using Jack Canfield's book The Success Principles to take his snowboarding to the next level. This year, he rode in places that I'm sure he could never have envisioned – and he brought these possibilities about for himself by changing his mindset to one where he takes one hundred percent responsibility for his life.

"Sure, Karen, that's all well and good, he's fifteen," I hear you thinking. "What does that mean for my young child?"

I'm glad you asked! Today I draw a straight line from my fifteen-year-old to your young child, asking the question: how do we start helping our kids take one hundred percent responsibility for their actions?

Click here or go to weturnedoutokay.com/068 for full notes to this episode – also, if you haven't already, go to positivedisciplineninjatactics.com to get notified when Positive Discipline Ninja Tactics, the book I'm just finishing up now for you, goes live in Amazon – it will be free for its first three days! The planned launch date is Sunday, April 24, we're getting really close now!

Apr 7, 2016

Before I answer today's listener Q&A, I'm reaching out to Ruth, whose question I answered in episode 61 (listen at weturnedoutokay.com/061) – Ruth, thank you so much for your question, and I'm glad my response resonated with you! Would you please check your spam and/or promotion folders in your inbox? Somewhere in there are two emails that I've sent you, in response to the two that you sent me.

Also, a quick announcement – Positive Discipline Ninja Tactics, the book I'm writing for you if you would like to keep your sanity while raising young children, is coming out on Sunday, April 24, 2016. For health reasons and to make it the best book it can possibly be, I chose to move the publication date from Sunday, April 3, to Sunday, April 24. To get notified the moment it launches – FREE in Amazon for its first three days! – go to positivedisciplineninjatactics.com.

Today, I answer Janice's question:

"I have an eight-year-old with Asperger's syndrome (high-functioning ASD) and a nearly six-year-old girl. They love each other heaps, but most of the time Mr. 8 doesn't want Miss 6 in the room. He says he needs quiet time.

I understand that he needs to unwind after school, but he does it all weekend long too. Any suggestions on how we can encourage him to be nicer to her. His ASD is mostly reflected in his social and emotional skills, which are quite low.

We are working on those.

He is happy to play with her on his terms and his time only.

Help! Thank you, Janice"

Go to weturnedoutokay.com/067 to read my response!

Apr 5, 2016

A quick announcement – Positive Discipline Ninja Tactics, the book I'm writing for you if you would like to keep your sanity while raising young children, is coming out on Sunday, April 24, 2016. For health reasons and to make it the best book it can possibly be, I chose to move the publication date from Sunday, April 3, to Sunday, April 24. To get notified the moment it launches – FREE in Amazon for its first three days! – go to positivedisciplineninjatactics.com

Sometimes you meet someone, and just know that you'd love a really deep conversation with them; that was the case with today's guest, mom, portrait photographer, and facilitator at a self-directed learning institution Amy Anderson.

Back in December you may have heard episode 43, about how to tell if your young child is consenting or not; in that episode I describe a presentation my husband and I had the great good fortune to attend. Blake Boles, the presenter, was asked the question: "how do you know if your young child is consenting?" Not being a parent himself, Blake turned the question back out to those of us in the audience – and Amy gave a great answer, turning the question around on itself and explaining how she can tell when her four-year-old daughter is not consenting. It's a great episode, but not a prerequisite to today – here is the link if you would like to give episode 43 a listen: weturnedoutokay.com/043!

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